Our guest today is Anton Buenavista, Ecosystem Growth at Pendle. Pendle is a novel protocol that enables the tokenization and trading of future yield via an automated market maker (AMM) design.
In this conversation, we explore how you can buy assets at a discount through Pendle's unique token architecture, how to earn fixed yield on assets, and various yield trading strategies. We also discuss the risks associated with Pendle's AMM model and composability risks.
Hey, everyone. I'm your host today, David. I lead research at Exponential. Exponential is a DeFi platform where we want to bring more rationality into the space and make it more accessible to all types of investors. In Degen Responsibly, we invite protocol builders to talk about their innovations, what makes their protocols unique, as well as how they manage and mitigate risk. Today, we have Pendle as our featured guest. And our speaker from Pendle is Anton. Anton, great having you on the Degen Responsibly. Really excited for this one. Why don't you get started by talking a little bit about your background, how you got started in DeFi and crypto, and what led you to Pendle? Sure. Actually, joining me as well is Dan. I'm not sure if he can speak, but yeah, I'll let him speak later. So I'll just do a quick intro of myself. I am part of the business team at Pendle. I deal with partnerships and overall just try to grow the Pendle ecosystem. I've been in the crypto space for quite a long time, starting 2012 in the Bitcoin space. And later on, joining full-time in the Ethereum space. My first step in DeFi was with Kyber. So I was one of the core smart contract developers over there. And later on, me and a bunch of friends from Kyber and other DeFi projects bundled up together and formed Pendle. So the idea of Pendle is that it's a protocol that enables tokenization and trading of yield. Pendle allows anyone to purchase assets at a discount, obtain fixed yield, or long DeFi yield. The protocol enables this by taking any yield-bearing asset and splitting them into their principal and yield components, which allows them to be traded via Pendle's AMM. So we've done very well in the liquid staking sector, supporting assets such as SDE, Rocketpool ETH, Anchor ETH, and so on and so forth, allowing users to trade and develop strategies around the underlying yield volatility. So that's Pendle in the gist. Yeah, great. Thanks for the high-level overview. Before we dive a little deeper into Pendle, what led you guys to this concept of tokenizing future yield? What's important about being able to lock in these fixed rates in DeFi? Yeah, sure. So during the last cycle, I joined the DeFi summer, I think that was around 2019 to 20, there was basically a boom of yield farms. Basically, there's different food coins, like the yams, sashimi, sushi, and such. And most of these yield farms were yielding up until 10,000 APYs and above. So it was really crazy. And there weren't really avenues where you can hedge risk against these high-yield tokens. And so you would be bearing basically a lot of levels of risk around these. So that's kind of where the idea came from. In TradFi, there is a $500 trillion market on interest rate swaps or interest rate trading. So being able to bring that into the whole DeFi market or in the crypto space just made a lot of sense because it basically allows people to hedge the risk against those high yields and develop strategies around it. So yeah, I guess that's kind of the main motivation around it. And that's why we started Pendle. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I definitely see the product market fit here. It's a huge opportunity. You can tap into all these different narratives across DeFi. Why don't we jump in a little bit to the product itself? First-time user coming to Pendle, it may seem a little intimidating at first, just seeing all the different yield data, all the different types of tokens. But you guys have definitely done a great job at simplifying the UI and the educational piece on educating users about how the protocol mechanics work. But if we just take the example of the Lido Stealth pool, a user comes to the website, they see YT, PT, the underlying yield, implied yield. What do all these different data points mean to the user? How should they view those different price points? Sure. So I guess just to set some context and a bit of a background, in traditional finance or tradFi, what Pendle does is similar to bond stripping. So the principal interest of bonds are separated. And the PTs, or principal tokens, essentially are equivalent to zero coupon bonds, while the YTs, or yield tokens, are the detached coupons. Therefore, the PTs represent the discounted asset that accrues value over time. It reaches maturity, which you are able to redeem one-to-one to the underlying asset. And this discount is basically possible because you're foregoing any variable future yield in favor of fixing your yield. At that point, when you get your discount and holding until maturity, this would be your fixed yield interest or fixed rate. So in summary, in essence, when you hold PTs, all you'd have to do is just wait for it, and you'll be able to realize that discount. But aside from that, inversely, there's the YTs, where if you hold it, you're exposed to just the yield portion, or the interest rate portion. And there is a strong relationship between YTs and PTs, right? And this is kind of like where the concepts of implied yield and underlying, or implied APY and underlying APY come in. So the underlying APY is essentially the APY coming from the underlying protocol itself. So coming back into the SDE example, if the yield coming from SDE is 5%, then the underlying APY of that asset is 5%. Whereas for the implied APY, the implied APY is the market consensus of the future APY of an asset. So when users trade YT or PT, they are implying what the future APY will be for that asset. In other words, if, for example, the underlying APY of SDE is 5%, but due to the trades of YT and PT, they are implying that the future yield would be 8%, then that's kind of like what the implied yield is. So you kind of can develop very interesting strategies around this. So if the implied APY is high, but the underlying yield is low, then it just makes sense for you to be able to sell your yield up front, or sell your YTs up front to be able to lock in that rate of 8%. But then if you think that interest rates are going up, then it might make sense for you to instead maybe buy more YTs because it could shoot up more than 8%. So it really depends on what markets are looking at, what the market is looking at in these different assets. For example, in particular, for GLP, because GLP, the APY refreshes every week. And so people speculate on that, right? They're able to earn additional or leverage their APYs by being able to either trade or buy these PTs and YTs, in essence. Gotcha. Yeah, that's super interesting. So I guess, for example, the implied APY right now for us, the LIDO is about 3.2%, underlines close to 5%. So I guess that the market consensus thinks that yield will come down on LIDO over the length of the maturity. That could be maybe because they think more people will stay, they'll bring down the yield. But in general, that means if you want, you can buy Steeth at a roughly 3% discount right now. I guess. Yes, exactly. I guess if you believe, I guess, why would someone... I mean, do you think this market implied consensus is very accurate or does that fluctuate a lot? Right. Yeah, do you think you can wait for a higher discount before purchasing that PT token currently? Yeah. So you can see that the market hasn't really converged yet between underlying and implied APY. And I think it's just a function of liquidity. So there's basically not enough liquidity yet for large trade sizes for YT in particular, right? In other words, if you do buy or sell YT with, let's say more than 100,000 worth of liquidity, then you would be moving or the price of that would be quite large. So we're not able to reach that point yet where slippage is very low unless there's more liquidity into the market itself. And that's kind of like how the AMM is designed, right? Is that we have two assets that comprises the AMM, which is the PT and then the underlying asset. So these two things, and they trade against each other. And YTs, how it's being traded in the same AMM is that we use flash swaps because we basically have this standard called EIP-5015 or we call SY internally. So this one basically represents the underlying asset, but it just conforms to the Pendle Protocols interface. But that SY is used to split it into the PT and YT tokens. So when we have an AMM that's comprised of PT and SY, in order to trade YT, you would need to do flash swaps where let's say it borrows a portion of SY from the pool. Mint splits them up into YT and PEs, sells that PT back into the pool, and then that YT is returned back to the user if he's buying YT. And inversely, it would be the same way where you take a bunch of like a bit of like PT, pair that with your YT, remit it back to SY, and then you can sell that back into the pool. And yeah, that's basically how you'd be able to sell your YT. So that relationship between YT, PT, and SY is what allows these trades to happen. And at the start of maturity, in terms of ratio, it's more leaned on the PT side as opposed to the SY side. And so when you try to do trades with YT, the initial price impact would be much higher as opposed to later on, like when the pool is in an equal ratio between PTs and SYs. Yeah, I would say it's just basically a function of liquidity that doesn't really allow this kind of like market efficiency to happen yet. But over time, we just hope that as liquidity grows and there are basically I guess more efficient ways to trade the yield, then we would see these implied underlying APY converge over time. Got it, got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also noticed I was looking at the 2027 maturity date. And so I think that makes more sense given the longer maturity that you lock in a lower rate. Yeah, but I think you mentioned the pool AMM design. That's I think one of the really cool parts of Pendle. Could you explain a little bit more on where that yield comes from on the AMM side for providing liquidity? Yeah, sure. So the AMM has been designed to be able to trade assets that have yield on them. So basically those yield-bearing assets, right? And PT and SY themselves are yield-bearing assets where PT is the discounted version and it accrues value over time. And SY is basically the underlying asset itself, right? So like SDE, which is earning yield over time as well. So our AMM has been designed to be capital efficient for a certain yield range. So think of it like Univ3 where you can set a price band and liquidity would be concentrated in that price band. In the same way for Pendle's AMM, you can concentrate liquidity within a yield range. So for example, if we expect SDE to trade between, let's say one to 8%, then we can set that yield band and trades would be concentrated within that yield band. And once it gets out of that yield band, then that's when slippage would kind of like shoot off the roof, you know? So yeah, that's basically how the AMM works. And it kind of like, yeah, it basically just takes into consideration the different yield that this asset accrues. So for example, since we work with different yield bearing assets, so not just, let's say the native SDE token, but we can also feature pools like from Auro, Balancer, or even like from other AMMs, right? Let's say like from Camelot, for example, or even let's say like from Stargate, USDT, for example, those all earn yield in their own way. And when you do add liquidity into the pool, this yield is still given back to the user. So it's still accrued back to the user where they can claim it at any point of time. On the other hand, if, for example, you are just holding the YT, then you're just earning that reward separately yourself. But yeah, in general, as long as you LP in, you earn this underlying reward. So including the swap piece as well, like from the pinned AMM. And if the underlying asset is a Aura or Balancer pool, they are earning those Balancer swap piece as well on top of those Aura and Bal rewards. But aside from that, there are Pendle emissions that's given to this pool through RV Pendle model, where people can vote into a gauge and then that gauge would allocate Pendle rewards into that pool and you would be earning those Pendle emissions as well. So overall, it kind of like is this flywheel, right? Where those who are, for example, in the LSD ecosystem and they have their own Balancer pool and they would want to help deepen the liquidity on the Balancer or a pool, then it would be in their benefit to list on Pendle because not only are they earning that underlying rewards of Bal, Aura and Balancer swapping fees, but they would also earn additional swapping fees from Pendle plus the Pendle emissions. So I hope I answered your question. if I hit it. No more. Yeah. No, that was that was great. I just want to maybe go a little bit more specific. You mentioned the three aspects where you have the swap fee, the pendulum incentives and then the native yields. So the swap fee that is that from that's generated from people zapping in and out of the of the pool. Yeah. I'm assuming that trading. So yeah. Trading of YTs and PTs basically. Yep. And that is that yield auto compounded back into the pool. So for the penalties itself, yes, it's basically your your overall liquidity increases over time. So when you withdraw your liquidity that you would be getting more back because that includes your fees or the penalties. But for the balancer fees itself, that would be accrued back into the LP token of the or a balancer pool. Right. So in a sense, it does accrue back in a way because you'd be getting more back of that LP. Yeah. In the same way, like, you know, how AMM sort where, you know, you basically increase in liquidity over time. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. And then on the native yield that that portion of I believe is coming from just the PT portion of the liquidity. So it's both. The SY. Yeah. So it's both. So PT itself is a yield accruing asset because it is a discounted asset, right? And over time, as it approaches maturity, you can redeem it to the underlying asset one to one. And SY itself is practically the underlying asset itself. So, yes, it would be yield bearing. OK, gotcha. Yeah. So you're also earning the yield from PT appreciated. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Cool. So, yeah, I think that that makes all makes a lot of sense. You highlighted a lot of the benefits of Pendle. I guess who is your core audience right now? Is it mainly retail hedgers and speculators that are using Pendle? So we have created two different UIs for different types of users. So if you notice in our UI, we have the simple and pro mode. And the simple mode is basically a simplified version of how we would want to present the protocol to end users. We don't want them to care about yield trading per se, but we want them to be able to acquire these assets at a discount. So that's kind of like the core narrative for that simple mode, where they can buy, for example, USDT or the other LSDs at a discount, and then they just have to hold it. And at maturity, they can redeem it one to one for the underlying asset. So that's essentially them buying the principal tokens. For the pro mode, that's where they get the full suite of features where they can both trade YTs and PTs, and there are more data involved. So they can see the underlying and implied APY, they can see charts on YTs and PTs. And yeah, that's kind of like where they can do more complex strategies against those assets. So I guess in terms of the ratio between the simple and pro users, there were definitely more pro users, because I think that it would be, especially for the DeFi DJs out there, it's basically a more interesting product for them to use. And yeah, we've seen more users doing the pro version of it. Not to say that there's no simple users, there actually are. But yeah, most simple users are either buying PTs or just LPing into those different pools. Yeah. So yeah, that makes sense. What are some of the, I guess, common strategies that you see people utilizing on Pendle? I remember you guys had some really hot threads on yield trading a few months back, where there was some astronomical return from yield trading some of the yield on, I think, GLP or GDAI. Yeah. Yeah. GLP. Yeah. So that was actually from Vu. So yeah, he's kind of like our in-house degen yield trader, you know. And we're doing this threads because we want to teach other people on this different yield opportunities as well. So you don't have to, for example, just keep your assets in farming. You can actually develop more interesting strategies to take advantage of this fluctuating yields instead. So in the case of GLP, what makes it interesting is that, again, every week that APY refreshes. And if you see their UI, I think at a certain date around Thursday or Friday, I think that the APY number changes. So on Pendle, they would try to predict this. So if they think, for example, in the next week, they think that the APY for GLP would be increasing, then they would start accumulating a lot of YT. And then once that refresh starts happening, then they would immediately sell them to be able to take that profit. And that would kind of represent your enormous amount of APY or profit against that strategy. Aside from that, yeah, for example, there are moments where the implied yield is higher than the underlying. So it would make sense for you to fix your yield at that yield point or that price point. So for example, let's say for SDE, that has happened a couple of times or even for the other LSDs. So in order for you to kind of de-risk yourself, so why not just fix your yield at that point of time and then just wait for maturity? And that would be your yield until then, until you can redo it for the asset one-to-one. So there are definitely, within the app itself, there are definitely a lot of strategies around that. But I think people have been extending their strategies even more. For example, they can do delta neutral strategies where, let's say for ETH, they would buy the yield for YT, let's say for SDE. And then on another platform, they would be shorting ETH. So they would be just pocketing the interest rate itself. Or they would be, for example, borrowing ETH in some money market protocol and then depositing that into Pendle so that they can farm the rewards that's on Pendle itself. So yeah, basically just a lot of strategies around that you can do with Pendle. Yeah, for sure. That's really interesting on the delta neutral strategy. I hadn't thought of that one. I was playing around a while back with the JLP pool as well. Looking back now with yields having cratered, it would have been smart to lock in the fixed yield back in the day when it was still in the 20% APYs. Cool, I guess. Yeah. And I just wanted to add as well, we actually have a handbook, a yield trading handbook that most of us in the team, the DeGene team, would add strategies there. And we do have the just LP in strategy, trying to zap and trying to take advantage between the price differences between YT and PT. So all these strategies would be in our handbook. And if anyone is interested in looking at those strategies, then you can feel free to visit them. We have a link on our UI itself to the handbook. Okay, awesome. Yeah, that's a great call out. In terms of the pools themselves, when did you really see this huge pickup in TBL? Was it mainly after the launch of Arbitrum? Yeah. So actually even before that, our version two was only launched end of November. So roughly around end of November, early December. And we've tried to experiment with different narratives. So when we first launched, we featured SDE and a convex pool and ApeCoin, because I think that was when the launch of ApeCoin happened. And we were trying to see if we could be part of that community as well. But I think the only time where it really took off was when we started featuring more and more of these liquid staking tokens. So we saw that SDE had a huge explosion in TBL. And then we started exploring with launching Oracles. I think the next one was with Rocket ETH. And then that's when things just started blowing up. And I think that's when the whole liquid staking thing just started blowing up as well, leading to the Shapella upgrade. And then when the Shapella upgrade happened, I think that's when things started going crazier and crazier, right? That's why we've started to feature more and more LSDs, such as assets, such as SFX ETH, SAFI, REETH, we have Anchor ETH. And just a few, like an hour ago, we just launched Swell's SWETH. So yeah, and I think in the coming weeks and months as well, we'll keep on featuring those different LSDs because it just makes a lot of sense, right? And on DeFi Llama, what's interesting enough is that I think in the last two months, liquid staking has just became the largest sector in whole of DeFi, just beating money markets. So it's over a $19.4 billion sector now, maybe even in crypto, right? So yeah, it's just basically a really huge burgeoning space, and it just makes sense for us to be part of that. And I think that with this whole LSD or liquid staking explosion, you'll start seeing a lot of different DeFi primitives that's being invented on top of it. So for example, you start seeing new over collateralized stable coins where they take in LSDs as collateral, or you have money markets that's just featuring LSDs, or even something very unique like ID Layer, where it's kind of like a restaking primitive. And yeah, Pendulum generally wants to be part of that. We want to present ourselves as kind of like an LSD DeFi primitive as well, where you can take those different liquid staking yield and hedge those, or be able to split those yield on Pendulum itself and develop strategies around it. So I think that's kind of like how we grew overall by following that narrative. Yeah, for sure. The LSD narrative has been one of the hottest narratives so far in 2023. And it's definitely cool to see you guys tap into all the different flavors of liquid staking ETH. I guess that does segue a little bit here to questions around risk. These pools have a lot of composability risks, I would say, where you're tapping into Aura, Balancer, you're dependent on a lot of these other protocols and their own technical smart contract risks. I guess, what's the process for listing these new types of pools? Is there any framework that you guys go through before listing a pool? Right. So there are definitely several layers of risk here, because we're a kind of like a second order derivatives type of protocol, right? And we rely on the security of other underlying protocols that we list. So in general, our philosophy is that the protocol itself is permissionless. And we've designed it such that if any particular pool has been, let's say, compromised or exploited, it doesn't affect the rest of the other pools. So one example would be, let's say, there is an underlying problem with the Stargate USDT pool, right? Then it would be isolated into that pool only, and not to the rest of the ecosystem of Pendle. Now, right now, even though we have that permissionless listing, it's on the smart contracts, it's still quite complicated for people to be able to do that. And we don't have a UI available yet for people to just create those markets. But we are getting there. So we're kind of like developing a UI for people to be able to easily create those markets permissionlessly. But aside from that, having guardrails to make sure that whatever they're setting up is not something that where people can just lose money in, right? And most of the decision making on which pools to list as of the moment is done by the team. And we try to work with as many partners that would approach us and say like, hey, can we list on Pendle? And each one that we work with, we make sure that the SAI or the EIP-5155 version of that underlying token is audited by our auditors as well to make sure that there are no exploits. And yeah, like, you know, when we watch them that, you know, they're as safe as possible. So we also have an ongoing bounty program to make sure that, you know, if anyone sees a potential exploit, then they can report it back to us, the team. But yeah, in general, there is definitely that, you know, like consideration, right? Like, because we want to be able to work with as many protocols as possible. And we're also aiming it to be permissionless. So that layer of risk kind of like grows over time, right? But we kind of like lead it to the due diligence of the users to be able to kind of like evaluate their own risk profiles on these different assets. But as much as possible, we would want to feature most of the blue chip ones. So that's why we have SDE, RE, and the different oracles there, or even Stargate, right? So that, you know, since people or their community trust these protocols, because they have already used them, then in the same way, they would be able to trust using this pools on Pendle as well. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I see that. Um, yeah, when you get to that permissionless point, I think that makes sense, where essentially becomes almost like a unit swap, where anyone can list any pool, and it's up to the user to sort of choose their risk exposures. In terms of like the team's control of the protocol, are there any actions that the team can take in case of the exploit at a pool level? Can you pause, I guess, deposits into a specific pool if there's an exploit? Or just overall, what controls or access did the team have over the protocol? So a lot of the protocol, the core components, such as the pools, or any part that holds user funds, those contracts are immutable. So basically, they are un-upgradable. and the team, us ourselves, never has access to those ones at any point of time. But there are some components that can be upgradable. For example, like the router in case we want to add additional functionality on it. But aside from that, there is a pausing functionality that can be triggered by the multi-sig right now. But later on, once we have a more DAO structure around this, then that will be offloaded into the DAO itself. But yes, there is kind of like emergency stops, but only stopping when a supposed exploit happens, I guess, in the protocol. But we've done a lot of effort and put a lot of resources into audits. We actually have over six audits to make sure that no such event ever happens. Gotcha. And then we touched a little bit on this earlier on the AMM pool risks. But could you just talk a little bit about what are the risks of providing liquidity there? There may be some impermanent loss, but if you hold the maturity, that probably goes away. Sure. So I guess let's go to the smart contract risk itself. So let's just say that we are integrating with Aura Balancer. When you do deposit through Pendle, that liquidity goes back into the Aura Balancer pool itself. So none of that liquidity is being held in Pendle's smart contracts. It's actually being held by the Balancer Aura pool smart contracts. So if anything does happen to the Balancer Aura pools, then that kind of is a layer of risk for the user. And I guess that kind of extends to the others, whether they be FaxE, the SDE, et cetera. So if there are any exploits in the yield bearing asset itself, then the user is exposed to that risk as well. Because SDE is in itself kind of like a derivative, right? So it's a derivative of ETH. And if there is a complication between a user being able to reclaim the ETH back from SDE, then that would be a risk to the end user. Now, when it comes to the impermanent loss risk, so since the AMM pool is comprised of PT, which is the discounted version of the underlying asset versus the underlying asset itself, then the pool in general is basically just comprised of the asset itself, right? So for example, for SDE, the AMM would be comprised of PT, SDE versus SDE. And since PT is the discounted version, as long as you hold it until maturity, then you can redeem it one-to-one. So if you're a user and you LP in into this Pendle pool and you hold it until maturity, then you would essentially be realizing no impermanent loss because you're redeeming that PT one-to-one to the underlying token. But of course, if you do redeem your, or pull out your assets before the maturity, then depending on the exchange rate between PT and the underlying asset, then you could experience some impermanent loss there, like any other AMM. But it should be minimized because those are very correlated or highly correlated assets. So yeah, it shouldn't be as big as like other volatile payers, I would say. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. What about the yield calculation risk? Is there any risk of the underlying yield being manipulated or how are you guys getting that yield? Right. Yeah. Yep, yep. So I think that this would be a bit more difficult to manipulate because for example, let's take one of the pools that has a lot of different kinds of rewards or yields, right? Which is the Aura pools. So an Aura pool earns Aura, Bell, and then the swapping freeze from the Balancer pool itself. So these are three basic rewards for that underlying asset. Now, if you would be manipulating that underlying yield, you'd need to kind of like have an outsized position of VL Aura. So in order to kind of like a vote into that Aura pool to channel more emissions to the Aura pool, right? In the same vein, if you have a lot of like V Bell, then you would be voting for your Bell pool, channeling more emissions to the Bell Balancer pool. Or doing some, maybe a lot of wash trading so that there's more soaring fees into that Balancer pool. That's kind of like the only way for you to be able to inflate the underlying yield of that yield bearing asset. So it would be very difficult for sure. I think that in terms of price manipulation, it's still a whole lot possible. So for example, people can still do flash loans where they would borrow from some money market and then buy a lot of YT. And then, although that use doesn't have any kind of like particular UCN because there aren't any kind of like external integrations on PT or YT itself. And we are, but we are working on those integrations. For example, PTs could be used as collateral in other money markets. But we have a Oracle already available for PTs, right? So it's using a TWAP system very similar to how Uni B3 works. And so such exploits such as using flash loans shouldn't be possible by manipulating either the YT or PT price. Yeah. So we've basically made sure that such things in case people would integrate these different assets from Pendle would not be exposed to such price manipulation risks. Gotcha. Yeah, that all makes sense. Why don't we move on a little bit to the governance token? So what can you do with that today? What's sort of the utility for that token? Sure. So we have the Pendle token and the Pendle token at the moment is used for a V system or best escrow system, very similar to how VCRV works. The only difference between VCRV is that instead of the four-year locking, the max duration is two years. And we also have a cross-chain system using layer zero where you can vote on gauges on other chains such as Arbitrum and later on, in case we are in Optimism, BNV chain, et cetera. All those voting happens on Ethereum instead and we just broadcast those voting results through layer zero. So yeah, like very similar to CRV, the first and foremost use case of Pendle right now is you being able to lock it into V Pendle and then voting for those Pendle gauges to channel those Pendle emissions too. And as a V Pendle holder, you are able to earn fees in terms of a portion of the yield generated from YTs, I think 0.3% of that, as well as the swapping fees from the Pendle AMM. So the V Pendle holders capture this as well. And this yield is returned as ETH currently to our end users. So you can think of it as kind of like real yield. Back to the end users. Later on, so aside from the current model, we are working on a DAO model where of course we will have the usual proposals and people can think of like, or propose potential upgrades into the system or maybe different kind of like governance proposals to further enhance the overall ecosystem of Pendle. But that will come much later on. Yeah, like once we have a proper structure built in for this. But that's kind of like the long tail use case of Pendle. Yeah, yeah, really. I like the V token model. Do you think there will be something akin to the Pendle Wars where protocols will be accumulating Pendle to direct incentives to their own pool? Yeah, that's actually happening right now. There are three currently, there are three current projects that's doing that right now. Kind of like a convex on top of Pendle, right? Where they try to acquire as much Pendle and be able to bribe, the products will be able to bribe for their own pools on Pendle. So the three ones are Stakedown, PenPi coming from the MagPi team and Equilibria. So PenPi and Equilibria aren't deployed yet as far as I know. I think they're also doing their token generation events in the next like, I think now in the next few weeks or so. But yeah, like in general, what they're trying to do is that, they're trying to acquire a large position of Pendle and then create bribe markets on top of this such that anyone who'd want to list in Pendle can bribe for their own pool on Pendle. So yeah, I would say that, Pendle Wars are definitely there now. Awesome. Well, I guess just wanted to move on to what's next in your roadmap. What's the future vision for Pendle? Any new chains, vaults upcoming that you can talk about? Earlier you did reveal small piece of news that I thought was interesting that you mentioned PT tokens would be able to be used as collateral in money markets. Yeah, anything expand on there? Yeah, we're actually working on several fronts at the moment. Too many to kind of like list right now, but yeah, like maybe I can go through them like directly. So first and foremost is that we're trying to expand the use case of our principal tokens or even our LPs, right? Or the LP tokens itself. So any protocol can take those principal tokens and use them as collateral in their, let's say their lending protocol. And I think it just makes a lot of sense because instead of using the native STE itself as collateral, why not use a discounted version where over time it accrues in value anyway? So that would be a good consideration to use as collateral. We are in talks with several protocols for this, although I don't think I can reveal them right now because they're still in heavy development. Aside from that, we still have a huge queue or line of upcoming assets to be listed on Pendle. So these comprises of like the usual LSDs, other unique assets that would be interesting to yield trade both on Arbitrum and on Ethereum. And there are LSDs already coming up on Arbitrum itself that we would be happy to list as well. And aside from Arbitrum, we are definitely looking into expanding into other chains. So I can't really reveal anything as of yet, but we are hopefully revealing something by this end of June. So yeah, something is coming up definitely by the end of June and more coming later this year as well. So we're in talks with several chains. But yeah, in terms of the assets that we'd be supporting there, I think you can just assume which assets would be generating the most yield and would be interesting to yield trade. But not only that, if there are any kind of liquid staking assets in that chain as well, then for sure we'll be supporting those as well. So yeah, I guess in a nutshell, that's kind of what we're working on right now. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, I think definitely a lot of exciting things happening. I'm personally more excited for the LSD. So on Arbitrum, just the gas prices are kind of prohibited right now for the average user on Ethereum. But cool, a lot of exciting things happening. I think that's a wrap. We can move it now to the Q&A with the community if there are any questions. Sure. Happy to take any questions if there are any. I guess while we're waiting, yeah, anyone feel free to try a Pendle. It's quite a complicated product to understand at first, but it's a good thing that we've created this learn page and we're quite serious in teaching people or educating people about the whole yield trading space. It's quite a new primitive, but it's been existing in traditional finance for quite a while. So I think that it's gonna be an important component of DeFi overall. And I hope that we get to the point where it's part of the kind of like a core service in the greater DeFi space. So not just money markets, not just DEXs, but yield trading in itself would be a critical component of the entire space. So yeah, that's kind of like my future aspiration in building Pendle. Awesome. Yeah, that's really exciting. Definitely hope you guys get that product market fit and reach that point of a mainstay in DeFi. Looks like we don't have any questions. So yeah, I think we can wrap it up here. Thanks Anton for the great session. Yep, yep. And hopefully we'll have another feature session soon discussing more Degen stuff. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Whenever you guys release some new features or products, it would be great to get you back on and discuss the new features. Great. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I had a lot of fun. Awesome. Thank you, everyone. Have a good day. Right, cheers. Bye. Bye.