Hey everyone, this is Dawei from Exponential and you're listening to Degen Responsibly, a podcast where we invite protocol builders to showcase their innovations, how they work, as well as do a deep dive on risk. Exponential is an investment platform that makes it easy to discover, assess, and invest in DeFi yield opportunities. We want to help you understand the tradeoffs and opportunities so you can degen responsibly. In this episode, we cover a lot of ground on one of the most innovative stablecoin protocols, FFX. We dive into the core concepts behind its stablecoins and leverage tokens and how it compares to other stablecoin projects like Athena. We discuss the unique flywheel effect that FFX products can generate for other DeFi protocols and how users can farm leveraged IGLEIER points with stablecoins through the protocol's stability pools, a mechanism that allows users to earn staking rewards from the protocol's reserve assets. Lastly, we talk about the upcoming launch of a new Bitcoin market and what it means for FFX and the broader DeFi ecosystem. All right. Hey, Tao. Welcome to Degen Responsibly. I appreciate you jumping on the podcast to talk about what you guys are building at FFX. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I think I first discovered your guys' protocols maybe late 2023, around November, December time. It was a pretty innovative product in my mind. I think it could be a little bit complicated as well. So I think it'll be good to hear your breakdown of what the protocol is. But before we get there, I just wanted to hear about your background and what led you to crypto and FFX. Oh, sure. So I started the crypto world since 2014. Then I get a job from Amazon. Then I have some extra money to invest. So I started doing some Bitcoin trading stuff. Then 2017, you know, the whole things, the ICO, all the stuff. Then I kind of like leave the crypto for a while. Then when the DeFi summer coming, then I joined because I kind of like the whole DeFi world, you know, the permissionless and decentralized part. And that make it happen. When the 2017, all the infrastructure is not there. Right. So the most popular crypto things is the centralized exchange. Right. So the decentralized exchange that all the DAX, DeFi make it permissionless, able to do everything we want it. So that's kind of things I like it. Then I start to dive into it. Then I get involved with Aladin DAO ecosystem, which is behind the FX protocol. Around 2022, at end of 2022, they have a protocol called Clever. So Aladin DAO have like three sub-protocol. So Aladin DAO is kind of like an incubator DAO. Then the concentrator Clever and FX is kind of the product they created. So the first two is more about auto-compounding and another one is leverage protocol, but no liquidation. But I think for this one, we focus on the FX. So I just save the time for the FX. So for the FX, the main idea come from the USDC DBAG, because Aladin DAO may have their treasure to manager. So at that time, we're holding a lot of USDC. Then you worry about that, right? USDC already have a very good background for the stable. But you know, when something happens like a bank issue, right? So we think, is there any asset is all like on-chain? We don't want like off-chain risk coming into the picture, right? So that's why we're starting with the FETH, which is kind of like experimental to approve our concept. So we want to create a decentralized stablecoin, which is backed by the on-chain asset, right? So then we start FETH, which is like a 10% volatility based on the ETH price, right? So it's not like a technical pack to the US dollars, it's packed to the ETH price. And we have like a 10% volatility. We start with that, then to prove our risk management concept. So we run that for a month and the TVL is around $25 million. So at that time, the ETH price is going down for like $1,500, then go back to $3,000 something. The whole system is running expected, right? So we gave the people a chance to choose. You want a low volatility or you want a high volatility with like a long leverage, right? Then we start to have our first product with a second product, which is FXUSD, which is backed by the LSD. It's either STETH or FLEXETH, right? The way we are doing is we kind of split the two parts. One is a stablecoin, which is backed by the ETH we have. Then the other one is a leverage token, but the leverage is changing, right? Based on the price. So they are the one invariant equation, which is the value of the total asset, the protocol in protocol result equal to the total value of the stablecoin we issue plus the value of the long leverage token, right? So if the ETH price going up, then the stablecoin will be staying the same. Then the leverage will be a little bit higher because the long leverage token is absorbed all the volatility from the stablecoin. Then we have the third product, which is called RUSD. Now what's the difference between the FXUSD and RUSD is the RUSD is backed by the Raised Staking Directive, which is EtherFi and Renzo. Currently we have two, EtherFi and Renzo. So and now the funny thing coming is because everyone knows the Raised Staking part have the point, right? So what's the RUSD is so special is you can use your stablecoin to farm this point. You don't have to explode your ETH volatility, right? For example is I have my portfolio. I have 80% on the ETH, 20% on the stablecoin. I don't want to change all my portfolio to the ETH, right? I want to keep like 20% on the stablecoin to farming, right? Then all my ETH already go to the different protocol for the raised staking and different chain. Then I still have some stablecoin. You still want to get some like item layer point. ETH 5 points right because the yield is really good then you can swap your stablecoin to our RUSD token then stay in the stablecoin in the stability pool there you get like um five around five times uh ETH 5 point uh around like three times uh eigenlayer point so that's pretty good deal then you get some risk taking reward then you're also getting the uh FX and emission so that's pretty attractive then on the other side if you think ETH price will be going up a lot right it will be a bull market then it might be the price is a little bit slow but eventually we go up right then you want some leverage then you can choose the X token the X token give you the leverage and we don't have a funding cost right we don't have like the longer you holding you lose a lot of money most of the uh prep market is like that right especially when the boom are coming then the funding cost is very expensive but for holding our X token we don't have the funding cost then the liquidation is very low because the liquidation is means uh the X token completely go into the yellow and we don't have any money in the stability pool so um it's very very low so it's uh based on our uh finance uh the the calculation white paper uh every time the liquidation happen is less than 0.1 percent so unless like ETH price going down like 50 percent in one day it might causing the issue but we you don't have to worry about just a small like things happen like last time the ETH price from 4,000 going to almost 3,000 something our project still working properly yeah okay gotcha yes you you covered a lot there um i want to maybe backtrack a little bit just starting off with with the basics you so essentially uh you guys split any yield bearing token into two derivative tokens one's the stable pair and the volatile pair so uh stable one is like the FXUSD or FETH and then the volatile is like XETH or uh uh XSTEET i guess yeah yeah yeah what was so can you just walk through like what happens when it comes to FX protocol with uh these like why would they want to mint uh either the FXUSD or the or the other uh X token okay yeah sure so we're turning to a two type of the investor right so first one is uh you want your leverage right so you think the ETH price will going up a lot right and you want to worry about the liquidation and you don't want to pay very high funding cost right like a lot of people like that for me for myself is i want some leverage but how do the bull market everyone want to leverage but in the regular uh either the lending protocol anything the interest rate keep going up and going down right and the liquidation and all the stuff give you a lot of trouble you have to continue monitoring the market all the times but for our X token you don't have to worry about that is the leverage is changing up and down but you still have some leverage and the more we are contribute or marketing our stable coin then your leverage will keep adding more right because it's kind of like a flywheel right because the leverage is higher than the more people going to the leverage then the more people going to leverage then they are giving up the yield right they're giving up this yield that we give to the rebalance pool a stability pool which will be give to the step up game to the stable coin part right the RUSD part the more they're getting from the RUSD part the more people were coming to the RUSD pool and the more people going to there the leverage will be going up right so if you are holding the leverage token currently like you get two times leverage that's good then if we continue in uh promote for the RUSD then your leverage keep going up like around three that's perfect because no funding costs right so that's a perfect for the people who want the leverage and they believe in the ease price will go up a lot then they should go that then for this the stable coin part is we also trying to change the way we are marketing our protocol is before we want people to think we split right that's how the protocol working but when you're talking about the escena then the escena is kind of like they're hiding this mint process they're only using the swap so it's kind of you use a usdc to swap then after you swap then they will mint either bitcoin or eth as a reserve so for us it's the same so we don't want people to think like oh i use the ease then to change to the stable coin when you do that it's kind of like you sell your ease right so we want to change it to think let people think when you when you go to the RUSD you just swap your uh stable coin portfolio from usdc or usdt to RUSD you're still using the stable coin but you're getting the you can farm the the the risk taking yield you can farm in the point you can farm in anything then you don't have exposed any ease volatility then when you stay in the stability pool when the ease price going down it's kind of like help you to buy a little bit ease back it's not like completely changing but uh if anything like uh uh in our uh rebat stability mode happen uh we were using the stability pool to to do some kind of liquidation is kind of sell the uh sell the reserve st eth or reserve eth back to the RUSD holder i don't know i explain that clearly or if you have any question you can yeah yeah i think that was no that was pretty clear um essentially the the leverage tokens the x tokens uh those are just like a easy and and simple way uh for users to access leverage to to these assets like ease uh without any funding costs right and then uh essentially by getting that cheap leverage all that all the yield from that uh token gets uh that gets absorbed into the the FXUSD yeah into in the stability pools yeah exactly so the the stability pool is two main reason right one is you have to save that when you mint your RUSD right what are you going to do right so we will suggest you to save that in our stability pool then we're giving all the yield from the uh from the uh the reserve to generate right then give to you then the from the protocol perspective the more money stay in the stability pool if anything happen right like uh uh is price going down a lot right then uh from the whole protocol perspective we are thinking our whole protocol is like cdp uh the the whole is we are holding the protocol holding is kind of the our asset then all the Bitcoin we're issuing is kind of our loan, right? So if it's price going down a lot, we cannot hold that much alone Then we will let the RUSD go back to the reserve kind of like okay, we cannot hold that much Ease, right? So we will let we will give Give the ease back to the RUSD holder say oh, we cannot guarantee. It's $1 Then we are downsizing, right? But from the RUSD holder's perspective, it's kind of a buying ease at a low price Right, it's kind of buy low, right? Okay, super interesting this this is almost like like a liquidity basically with their stability pool The big thing is we don't like a fighting with other on-chain liquidation Normal CDP is when the ease price going down They have to like speed up, you know to swap all the other collateral, right? To to make sure the protocol don't have any loss, but for us it's not it's internally, right? That's and ease is here then RUSD also in our protocol, right? Then we just let you know, okay You used to have like holding all RUSD and Earning money, but now it's like a 90% is RUSD and 10% you are buying the ease at like 1500 right then for the ease actually it's good, right? You don't have to manually do yourself, right? It's kind of like similar to the central exchange. They have called buying investing kind of like You know if the price going down you kind of buy it's kind of a sell put right? You're you're in like a Option market is kind of like sell put you you are Yeah premium, but if the price going down you don't mind to buy the asset at a low price Interesting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense the the way you put it with the sell put and and the reason for this is You don't want you don't want there to be too many F tokens where there's not enough X tokens to absorb all that volatility. So so this way it reduces the the total amount of state of GSD tokens Yeah Okay. Yeah, so we need an X token to absorb all the volatility But based on the 8 months or more than a month close to 10 months Operation we we find our X token in many very and you can see leverage is not going up that much Right. We want this going up around four, right? That would be very attractive so so a lot of people say oh you didn't enough people to There any like if the market is not that good people still want the leverage based on our Data it is especially for for our Product the X token which don't have the liquidation and the no funding cost people say oh, I will hold it All right. It's kind of easy. You don't have to monitor in the market all the times and the only thing you get up It's just a staking reward, right? So I was looking at the stability pools also, and I noticed that You have like two stability pools per asset like one that would so for like WC you have one that redeemed to WC and then one that redeems to X teeth Do you expect differences there? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so that's very that's kind of like the product the user demand right so it basically means when the East price going down and we are in the stability mode right then some of the Stable coin will be swapped to the East price Swap to the East, right? but some people say oh, that's Very good opportunity. I want adding leverage, right instead of swap to the ST ETH I want to X ST ETH. I want the leverage In our stability mode when you are in that specific case when you mint when you mint X ST ETH the main fees like going down like because at that time is price going down a lot we want people to join the X token, right so to handle the volatility, so some people say oh when the market is kind of like Going down some people wanna wanna wanna try right? It might be a good opportunity. You might go up very quick, right? So so yeah what difference is when the stability mode happen you want to redeem to the ST ETH or you want to Redeem to the leverage token. Got it So frankly is more like a more degen stability pool for those who want exactly exactly. Oh, oh You why is I won't buy low and otherwise. Oh, I won't buy low with leverage Amazing yeah Cool yeah, you mentioned earlier you you guys were trying to push the leverage higher on the X tokens. Why do you think? they haven't kind of Reached the higher the higher tier around the 4x. Is it because there's just a lot of demand for the the yield on the F tokens no, because for the F for the X token is No matter what leverage it is There are no funding cost right when you are betting on the X token you give up your yield anyway, right? Then you you do you prefer higher leverage or you will prefer? Low leverage everyone will prefer low leverage, right? Especially no funding cost, right? So we want to push the leverage to a little higher like now It's like 1.7 1.6, which might not be that attractive, but if it's going to three times You don't have funding cost everyone will go right then How can we push the leverage to that high is we have a lot of? Money going to the FX USD or going to the stable part, right? So it's kind of a flywheel, right? So, okay. Yeah, I see. So the more yeah, the more demand you get into the FX you see the higher the leverage Okay. Yeah, I will we continue giving a lot of Money to the stable part. So we remove the The mink fee normally the FX USD or I USD we have the mink fee so we already remove it so no mink fee, right then You are all welcome then we put all the Point right we give in the for the for the race taking part We give all the point to our USD and the leverage pretty high because it's in the stability, right? So all the money go to the X token they give up all the point, right? Then a lot of the RUSD didn't go to the stability pool They go to the another pair like our USD with FX USD like LP Cool, right because they also give a very high yield so the money I USD stay in the stability mode is less than I think less than 30 of the total East price then, you know, the leverage is higher, right? So we we currently we show the four but it's more than four. I In my Twitter, I calculate it's around like a five So right, so if you do that in a pen though, you you pay the money for the yield token, right? You basically use the ease to buy the buy the point before Yeah, you get it for free because stablecoin is still stablecoin. You're still getting the restaking, right? And we don't have an expiration date. You don't have to worry about that. It's just put there, don't do anything. You give the yield and you get FX and you get all the, all the monies. Okay. Yeah. That's super cool. Um, so say like I'm in RUSD, I've been, I've been farming the yield and, and, uh, airdrop points for a while. Uh, what's like my exit, uh, strategy? Uh, do I resume that act to the LRT or, or something else? Yeah. Yeah. You can. So, so first one, we have a lot of pairs with other, uh, pairs. So if you want to go, you can just swap your RUSD to any, any stablecoin. Right. So if you want to go, you don't want to like, you get a point, then you are happy and you find the other opportunity you want to leave, then you can just withdraw from your stability, right? Then you can swap to any, uh, stablecoin, right? USDC, USDT is fine. Then you can go anywhere. And also we are kind of like integrated with other protocol to, to make the RUSD and the FXUSD more useful. Right. We will having, uh, uh, uh, integrate with other, uh, protocol. So you can use that in other place. So, so you can, you, you can always leave, right? Then if you, if your amount is a lot, then the liquidation LP is not that, uh, deep enough, then you can always redeem, right? So the, so the, so the protocol, you can also redeem, then they have a little bit redeem fee. But like in 0.25, then you can get your ESPAC, right? Based on like, uh, it's either EtherFi or Randle. Okay. Um, and for, for the redeem route, uh, I mean, I noticed there's like two, uh, LRT tokens, you have EETH and EZE. Yeah. Uh, like how do you, do you choose the one that you redeem to, or is it some, is it determined by the protocol based off of, uh, reserves? Well, I think it's based on the, so it's based on the, your choice, like unless that stability had been like completely used. Okay. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. And then how, how do you guys like add new, uh, new LST and LRT assets as, um, as base tokens? Is that, does that go through like a governance or team decision process? Yeah, currently we are working with, uh, uh, using the team. So we are talking with them and we choose, uh, basically the top two, right? So, uh, later on, if some protocol, which is a little bit new, we don't know the, the, the reputation yet, right? So some, some protocol you need, you take some times, right? Then we can have like a isolated one. So it didn't stop us. Then it's not part of the RUSD, but it will be another separate, uh, pair, stable and the leverage, right? Uh, what do you mean by separate pair? Separate pair is currently like RUSD, right? So you can either use a, because we don't want so many stable coin issued by us. Right. Yeah. It's not like every asset we have one, right. But we can have another separate one, for example, uh, another, uh, LRT protocol, which might not be like a top 10, right. It might not be like a top three, right. Then the liquidation might not be that good or something like that. Right. So not qualified for the RUSD yet, but we can have another one, say, uh, like a special USD, which is a stability pool. And, uh, they have a stable coin. They have an average token, but part of RUSD. So we don't want to like, uh, you know, something happened and that people will be, you know, uh, it will break up. So it's kind of like isolate pool. I see like a landing protocol, isolated pool, right. If one have any risk, it will not be affect to others. Right. So the other, yeah, makes sense. Yeah. So like the, anything that happens to frack seat that wouldn't have impact on RUSD or FC. Yeah, exactly. We want to isolate it. That's pretty cool. Um, but to, to your point, what you said, like you, you don't want to have a bunch of stable points either, right. Cause then that kind of, yeah. So that kind of like separates the liquidity too much. Yeah. Um, is there a plan to like push for one as the dominant stable coin or, or what's the thought there longer term? Um, we haven't announced the roadmap, but, uh, probably we will have like an ETF style based on the people like, so it will be like a mix with others. But, uh, like don't, don't take that as a official one. It's just my personal thoughts. That's currently, currently we, we focus on two development then for, for each one, like a restaking and a staking one. So at least that we're listing all the information. So people know what's your stable coin is backed by, right. What's the worst case you get it. Right. So, so you will, people will clear. Right. If you trust the EtherFi, then you go to RUSD and the worst case you get more EtherFi is back. I wanted to ask maybe maybe this is like a hypothetical scenario, but what would happen in like a black swan event if, if each prices were to say crash more than 25%, um, you have L you have these LST, LRT, SSD pegging, can the, can the system handle something like that in that scenario? Yeah. I'm glad you're asking. So we are very happy to answer this question because we have thinking that all the times. Some people just asking the reward that they never ask in the risky part. Yeah. So that's, that's making more risk, right. We're like a 50% is priced. Right. So the first one is that's, that pair will be going to the stability mode. Right. Then in that stability mode, uh, all the, all the money for the RUSD, uh, they will be used. Right. So, so you will be, they say, Oh, we want downsize. Right. So we cannot like, um, make sure we can pack that much, uh, RUSD. Right. So it will be kind of like a downside, the RUSD size. So if the stability pool money had be absorbed, uh, uh, uh, be used, right. Then what's the next, then the next is, uh, we will increase, uh, the, uh, the redeem for the, uh, for the, uh, Oh, okay. Sorry. Uh, we will, uh, increase the redeem for the X token, but, uh, make the, uh, uh, mint for free, so we, we are able to aDegenust the fee to make sure some people want to jump in at that time, because at that time it's price is pretty low. Right. Then if it's not working, we have our treasure money. That treasure is currently all the protocol, uh, revenue, 75% going to the FXN token holder, the BE one, then the 25% going to the treasure. Then the treasure will be start buying the X token to make sure we are able to balance. So kind of like a downsides. Then we have additional funds to buy at a special case. OK, I think I understand. Yeah. But is there a scenario where like the X token kind of gets liquidated almost where it goes to zero? Yeah, it kind of zero, but it's still token. If the price going up, you're still back. So that's why it's not fully liquidation, right? It's not like, oh, you lose your position. Bye bye. Later on, the price going up, it's not your business. But you still have token, right? Right, right. OK, so the price can go like near zero. But if you come back. Yeah, it's come back, you're back. But remember, if it's going to zero, might be a lot of people mint at that time. So even though the price going back to the same, you might not get a full recovery. Right. But still better than nothing, right? And they depending how many people buy at that low price. And you might buy, right, because you're familiar with that system. You might be a low opportunity to buy more with the price going down. So it's all based on your prediction about the ETH price. Yeah. OK, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned earlier, like the Athena protocol and Denver trade is how that's kind of similar to what you guys are doing, but you guys are doing a more decentralized way. Yeah, be curious what your thoughts are on Athena, their stablecoin, the risks there and stuff. Yeah, I have a panel with them. I think they are going very fast. They opened the ceiling for hours, right? Yeah, kind of same business. The way we are doing is a little bit different. They leverage the power from the central private market, right? They can open the shop position in the Binance or OPX, right? Then they get a lot of supporting from them. But for us, we are using the Xtoke to do these kind of similar things for the leverage part and for the hedge part, right? So it's just different way, right? Then the whole market should not be only have one product. It should be have multiple. It depends on your vision. Do you prefer a central exchange? You think they are more powerful? You like it? It's fine. Then if you prefer decentralized, like a more decentralized way, you want to see the everything on chain, right? You want to verify by yourself. You want a permission list. Then you might prefer our way. So there's no like best, but like I said, it's the only risk is where the size going up, continue going up for the escena. Are they going to able to open enough short position, right? If the funding cost going to an active, can they handle it, right? So that's kind of thing they need to worry about. But for us is we design a little bit, at least I like this design, right? We, it's like automatically, it's kind of like people, we don't do much control, right? We don't have to open the position. The X token owner hold it. So we don't do the protocol level hedging part, right? It's kind of the user to do it. So we just a balance that two pool to make sure it's in the healthy stage, right? Other is more naturally. So I think it's kind of, for my understanding, we can easily to go multiple bulls and bear market, right? It's kind of during bear market, we cut the cost, makes the size a little smaller. Then we hang there. Then during the bull market, the leverage going up, then flywheel coming, you know, stable coin and more yield and leverage is much better. Then we are happy. So it's kind of like you can go small, go up automatically using the, using the, yeah, that's, that's why I like it. You know, there are a lot of flexibility. That's why the next one we're going is going to do the BTC. We already made an announcement. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. The BTC. Yeah. I saw that announcement. I think it was today, right? Yeah. Today. Yeah. We announced the BTC, you know. Yeah. And because BTC is a bigger market, right? Then we have, we have that tooling, right? It's, I tell the team like, we're the factory, right? It's kind of the decks you have creating the LP. For us, we're creating a pair, right? The stable and the leverage. So everything we can split, right? Now we can make sure different type of the investor can get what they want. Yeah. Any, anything you can discuss about the, the BTC product? I just know the one difference is from what I read is there's no, this is, there's no yield on WPTC. So you guys are implementing a funding rate here, similar to Athena. Yeah. So basically we will charge a little bit on the, on the X token. Okay. So basically we will charge you a little bit on the X token. Then, then you get a, you get the leverage. Then the other side is we are very welcome for more stable coin too. So you can use your stable coin to farm BTC. People like that, right? Yeah. So the, so basically the funding rate that, that becomes the yield for the, for the stability pool for the BTC. Yeah. I think that's the, the concept, but like, like we said, there are a lot of BTC product ongoing, right? There are a lot of, you say you want to providing the yield. So we are still working with some of them to come up with some better idea. But for the WBTC, it's that concept. So we charging a little bit on the X token sites, then on the stable one, we gave that to a stable. Okay. I want to ask about your like tokenomics, what sort of flywheel there? I know, I know it's similar to like a curve with the V model. Yeah. Is it like a bribing mechanism for all the different pools? You, you, you already know that also. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, that's like we said, so first of all if you lock it, right, then we have the liquid wrapper. So you don't have to like a lock for four years. You just go to the convex or stake down. Then you just stake the FX in there. Then you get a wrapper one, right? If you had a wrapper one, you don't want to do anything. You just stake there. Then I think it's around like 30%, around 30%. Then now that all the yield is the real yield, right? It's a CVX and the ETH, right? So you can easily sell. It's not like just another government token. So all the yield is real money. So it's around 30 to 40%. And then we just started, right? So you can say we, our protocol itself, it didn't make money because we had a min fee, we didn't fee. Then all the staking rewards, we're giving 50% to the stability pool. Then 15 going to the protocol, right? So if the size going up, the protocol will make a lot of money. Then another part is we are, we're also doing the emission, right? So it's kind of like a pendant or it's kind of like a curve, right? So the, the, you know, the, how do I say? ETH issuer, the protocol issuer, like ETH supply or rental, right? So for example, they want to, emission more, higher APR for their specific stability pool, they can do the incentive. So incentive is either they buy the FXN and vote for it, or they can do the buy market or incentive market. So our FXN incentive market have been open like for three incentive marketplace, Convex, and you can do the Paladin and stuff. So we can easily do that. So it's kind of like we get money from the protocol, right? Because they want their product more popular, right? So it's easy, right? Because in the RUSD, you can say, oh, one year is like 8%, another one is like 10%. Or then the incentive for the FXN emission will be a little higher. So people will do that. So we do see in the last round, we have like 100k incentive money from the protocol. From PayPal, from the GHO, the RV one. We get multiple protocol already incentive. Oh, they're cool. Have you noticed like these protocols starting to buy FXN? Like kind of starting the bride wars almost? I think currently, most of them, they do the incentive. Because Convex already buying a lot, right? If you already have the CVX, VLCVX, you can directly vote it. So we already have like a two player. So then most of the protocol will be instead of like buying for them all, they probably will go for the incentive marketplace for now. Because currently, it's very worth it, right? Like let's take PayPal as example or GHO as example. They incentive around 20k for two weeks, right? Then the pool for the GHO FXUSD pool is like 3 million something, 3.5 million. So it's very good deal. So that's why they like it and then they continue incentive. So that's another like income. Okay. Yeah. Nice. And the yield that you mentioned, so you would need to first deposit liquidity on Curve and then deposit that on FX protocol to get the yield? Yeah, it's like a double gauge. So basically, the LP is in the Curve, right? Then you stay in the Convex or our site, then you can get like, either you get a CRV if they incentive on the CRV site, right? And also they get additional FX emission if they are incentive on the FX site. Okay. So you get double, right? It's like a double gauge system. If you are one of the LP, right? So you're either getting the, you can get both. Everyone like, everyone like that. So yeah, it depending on like, because the pair, right? For example, GHO want to incentive on the one side, then we are incentive on the other side. Another thing I want to mention is for like FX USD as example, we are integrated with the aggregator soon. So you will be showing soon is we don't need that much. We don't require that much liquidity LP death, right? Because we're integrated with the aggregator. If you want to swap like $5 million, $5 million USDC to the FX USD can do it. Most of protocol cannot do it because they don't have enough LP, right? Then it will be terrible. But after our integration, we're still, I think it's close, then it will be piggybacked to the STETH because the reserve is the STETH, right? So basically to USDC swap to the STETH, they use the STETH to mint FX USD. I see. Yeah. And you don't have to go through the, you're not limited by the liquidity on curve. So that's a lot of lesson we learned from the previous, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's why we don't have, we don't limit our scale. So it's easy to scale, right? We don't have to continue to increase our cost to maintain that LP. But we will continue to maintain the high LP, then people for a small amount may be easier, right? You don't have to do the mint part. But if a big money come in, yeah, it's still good. And we are launching, also the FX can do the Lama Lend on the Arbitrum in the curve. So the curve lend, so you can like for you, you do the LP on the Arbitrum, the other chain, right? You get the FX and you saw the FX and we'll continue going up. You don't have to sell it. Then you can lend it there. You can get a CRB USD, so. Okay, cool. That's the collateral on Lama Lend now? Yeah. Yeah. It's already in Lama Lend. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then you can use the CRB USD to get extra money, right? Yeah. So that's another. Yeah. And we are launching the referral system soon. So basically is we want to encourage people to continue, increase our TBR, right? So we used to have the boosting program, but we want to open that with more people. So for example, if you are promoting like KOL people, right, now they encourage people to come in. Then if, for example, you generate your referral code, then you give some other friend who wants to deposit, right? Then for every dollar money they make from the FX or FX USD or IUSD, you get like four points per day, right? If you stay in the stability pool. Then for the X token, you get two points. Then we have like close to 2000 FXN, probably around per month to give away. But it will be like based on the TVL increase. If we reach to that TVL, that's how much money we'll give. So I quickly calculate it's around like a 1% close to 1% reward. And it's split between the referral and the referee. So everyone get it like 50-50. So not bad. It will be announced soon, probably next week. Oh, wow. Nice. Just going back to your RUSD with the whole Eigen layer airdrop, these seem like pretty good demand. I'm just surprised because I thought it seems like a pretty good deal. Like you're getting leverage on these points, but you don't really have any downside risk almost. Not like Pendle where the YT goes to zero over time. Just whole like costs, you're not borrowing to leverage it. You get it very quickly. Yeah. It's the downside. So you can see we're leaning to the RUSD on the stable part, right? You get all the benefits. You don't have any. And I think for the RUSD part, it would be more growth pretty faster because more people lean to the stability pool part, then the leverage is higher. So people will go to that leverage token too. Right. So you show me a flywheel and you know, yeah, that's why we are, we get a deal with Etherfire or Renzo, right. They gave us additional two times. So it's like a four time. Then we are, yeah, you know, yeah. So, and then later on, we will ask them to like incentive on our site. Then you get more yield. Because once the market is more stable, they need to like, you know, compete each other kind of, right. So, yeah. And another thing is we're bringing the stable coin part here. People run out of their ETH already, right. So you have the stable one, right. You get, you get, some people think that ETH price is high. They don't want to, you know, buy ETH at that price, right. So, but they still holding the stable coin. So why not? Right. You, you can, you can still enjoy the, all the point or the LRT and without any other risk. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. These yields are pretty amazing. I feel like we need to get some of these pools on exponential. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can, we can talk about it. Like, yeah, I saw, I saw your product listing a lot of information. I like it. It's very clear. Yeah. We listing on the, on the OQX for the FUTH. But you see most of the user, because we're on the main net. So at that time, the gas fee is pretty high. So we don't see that much, but I think, yeah, we, we, we definitely want to, you know, involve with more protocol than can listing then explain more details. Right. So, yeah. So yeah. If you have any like integration opportunity, we can, we can talk offline then. Yeah. Yeah. I think that'd be great. You know, this has been a great conversation. Really, really helpful diving into FX protocol. I'm just wrapping it up here. Like what, what's the, I know you talked a lot bit, a bit on the roadmap already, but anything else on the, on the horizon, like maybe a new chain, like you mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. We will, we will do that. But currently there are no like public announcement, but we are working very, very hard. So, you know, you will see a lot of good announcements later. A lot. Yeah. I'm very confident. If users want to learn more about FX protocol, where can they find you guys? Oh, you mean where, where the place, good place to. Yeah. Where are the best places to learn more about the protocol? Yeah. Yeah. We have the 18 Twitter. I can, I can, I can pin you the, the information, then Twitter. And the best place to discuss is in the discord. Our discord have a lot of conversation and you can give the feedbacks, everything there. So all the team, the team is very active, are very active on the discord and we had been building during the whole bear market. Nice. Super cool. Well, thanks Tao. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you. This show was brought to you by Exponential. Exponential is on a mission to democratize access to the best yield opportunities in DeFi. Join exponential.fi now to start your DeFi investing journey.