Revert

Hey everyone, this is Dawei from Exponential and you're listening to Degen Responsibly, a podcast where we invite protocol builders to showcase their innovations, how they work, as well as do a deep dive on risk. Exponential is an investment platform that makes it easy to discover, assess, and invest in DeFi yield opportunities. We want to help you understand the trade-offs and opportunities so you can degen responsibly. We chatted with Mario from Revert Finance to discuss their innovative suite of products tailored for automated market maker or AMM positions. Our conversation particularly focused on their ground-breaking lending product, which allows for the collateralization of Uniswap V3 positions. And we talked about how this opens up a plethora of opportunities for liquidity providers by enhancing their capital efficiency. All right, hey Mario, welcome to DJ Responsibly, excited to have you on and talk about what you guys are building at Revert. Hey Dan, thanks for the invite, sorry. No yeah, so you know, before we dive into all of that, I wanted to ask about you, your background, how did you get started on your DeFi journey, and you know, more specifically, how did that end up with you building Revert? Sure, so it's been a few years, you know, since I started working in crypto. I first, you know, well, I first got attracted to crypto just mostly because of the permissionless aspect of the permissionless building seemed always like, yeah, something that I believe very deeply would lead to like, you know, very ad constant in all sorts of systems. And it's just like, really something I really loved about the internet and how it was, you know, it was like disrupting different industries, but just, you know, making it more accessible for different entrepreneurs and builders of all sorts, right. And that seemed, you know, when I started thinking about Bitcoin and sort of like reading about it, that, you know, the economics aspects of it and sort of like the separation of money and state, it seems like, you know, and not just a good idea for me, you know, I'm from Mexico and like, you know, our country, as many countries in Latin America have seen, you know, pretty, not in the recent years, but just historically and even not that far back though, you know, so like recent enough that I remember as historically, you know, just we've had like, I would say a terrible image, you know, of local currency. So like that aspect was, you know, felt true to me, but to be quite honest, like our ability was that aspect of permissionless building. And so just I was convinced that I wanted to work in this industry. I'm a software engineer, right? So I realized that there was like an interesting exchange just starting out in Mexico in 2016. I mean, they started like a couple of years earlier, like a year earlier, I believe, but I just, it seemed like a rare opportunity to join a very early stage company, you know, that was started by a specific person, Anderson. And I basically, you know, convinced them to hire me. And that was the beginning of my crypto journey, I would say, like, at least in a professional sense. And I worked a couple of years at that exchange called Bitso and it was just like a great time to be there, it was exciting, it was a small team, so like our, you know, your efforts as an engineer are very, you know, clearly, clearly relevant in the output of the company itself, like at least, and also like just learning from seeing a company at that hydro, you know, stage. So I worked there for a couple of years and, you know, one of the projects that I worked on was designing and building a trading ADI. So you know, it self-serve resulted in me realizing there was a huge opportunity back then by just, you know, trading between centralized exchanges, this is quite before DeFi. And so, you know, by 2018, I left the company and, you know, decided to start a market making firm, basically just basically doing, you know, market making and arbitrage and centralized exchange. And, you know, we built the trading system for that for a couple of years. And by 2020, there was some like profound differences of vision with some co-founders. So it was like, I would say now I got an opportunity to exit. And by then, you know, DeFi was like in full bloom and it was like, just like, it sort of like felt like it was delivering on this promise I had, you know, like this idea I have taken from like early Bitcoin days of like, you know, permissionless building. And I guess like I just, you know, at that point I was really sure I wanted to build something in DeFi and I just started, you know, experimenting with different ideas. But really what like really rang more like something interesting for me was this, you know, so basically I was like doing liquidity provision, I guess, or farming in what we called back then. And there was no way to like ask, you know, analytics of how your position was preparing. Like I had an Excel sheet and that was like really no, there was no tool that would help us, you know, like decide if you're in business or you're in profit and that's how we started, like it evolved from like a spreadsheet to like an automated script I wrote. And then, you know, a friend helped me like design a UI for it and, you know, after the race basically. Yeah, I'm curious about like some of the insights that you've gathered throughout these past few years building on top of Uniswap, like what are some of the challenges I guess you've faced during this time? Well, let's see, like I think like the first thing we realized when we were like sort of like thinking about how we would like build a product for LPs was that, you know, this sort of like, they're sophisticated users, though retail focused, right? Like there's this idea that, you know, because the way the industry sort of like benchmarks the performance of these investments, and this includes like what we do like as a default on revert, is taking into account, you know, what they call like the divergence loss or impairment loss that it used to be called, right, which is basically, you know, benchmarking the performance against holding the assets. And, you know, in a lot of pools, I think we can get into that. I think that the consensus is a bit off what the reality is with regards to like how those investors perform using that benchmark. But you quickly realize that these users are, you know, very well aware of like that issue, but sometimes it just doesn't factor in to the investment they're making. Like, perhaps they're just interested in increasing, you know, like their allocation of ETH and not like taking into account the performance of the other token or something that like they use in this position, particularly with concentrated liquidity as a way to like take profit or like just, you know, trade basically. So, yeah, like one of the realizations we had, you know, early on by talking to users is that, well, there's a bunch of different strategies that people sort of like apply when LPing in these protocols and sort of like we realized there. So an opportunity to build like a, like a power loop to allow them to like monitor how the strategies are performing. And also like there was a lot of pay points that we kept hearing, you know, repeatedly from users regards to like, you know, just interacting with the systems and, and yeah, and that's sort of like what we've been doing for the last couple of years has been, you know, interviewing LPs, figuring out, you know, what their pay points are and just, just building, building the tools that will help them. Cool. Can you talk about some of these specific tools that you built? You mentioned like the analytics ones, but what else, what else have you built on top of these on Uniswap? Sure. So, so it started with the basic analytics of giving you like, you know, all your existing, you know, positions or like investments in the same pools, like how they are performing. Right. And, and, and this included not, not like I was, like I was saying on the, against, you know, the, the industry standard tradition of like holding the asset, but also I guess, you know, ETH value or USD value, depending on like your, your different strategies. Right. But, but like we, we also realized there was like, even if you go back to the lifecycle of creating this investment, you, you realize that like there's, for example, a need to, to backtest the parameters you're, you're selecting. Right. So, so we built like a tool that we call the, the initiator, which allows, you know, any LP to select the assets they want to possibly provide liquidity for. And, and so like, you know, different parameters, like the range or specific pools, and then they can backtest down, you know, the performance against, against down, I guess, like the real beta of whatever, you know, previous period. And of course it's like backtesting isn't just intrinsically isn't a guarantee of like future performance, but, but it's very helpful to get an idea of like how it would have performed. Right. And, and likewise, you know, finding opportunities, you know, like it, like a great way to do that is to expose data of how other investments are performing. Right. So we built like basically an index of all the positions on, on Uniswap and the, and allow anyone to like filter and search through them. And that those were like the, like I would say, like, like the, the bread and butter for, for Huawei, I think that this is how we were useful, I would say to a lot of our users. But then, you know, particularly last year, we started realizing there were other pain points, if you like automation or like just basically interacting with contract, like Uniswap specifically, you've probably gone into this when you want to add liquidity to a pool, you have to have the tokens in the correct, you know, ratio for the, for the parameters you set, like for the price range. And so, you know, basically build smart contracts that allow, you know, different kinds of SAPs that, that, that, you know, help our users like perform different actions in just like in a convenient, you know, atomic transaction. And, and like, likewise for automation, like a lot of people want to, you know, provide liquidity in a way that's, you know, cost-intensive enough so that the fees are high for, for like, you know, whatever the pool is, is, is, is, you know, it's having returns to investors. But they want to also stay enraged in case the pricing side of the position, or they perhaps want to just like set, make a stop-loss type of mechanism where like the liquidity is withdrawn and swapped to the, to the, to the asset that isn't depreciating and like, we also like build automation futures that allow our users to do that. So like that, those, those have been like, you know, basically what we focused on over the last, our last year was like, like on-chain activities and also like, you know, Uniswap B3. So we, when we started like Uniswap B3, there wasn't the same, a lot of the same requirements in Uniswap B2 where you wanted to know like how your position were performing and like find opportunities. But with B3 that, that becomes much more of a necessity, I would say, just because you've got like more decisions to make as a liquidity provider, right? So yeah, we completely focused on Uniswap B3 and right recently we sort of like expanded to, to Uniswap B3 for, like, like forward to Unethmos. But, but I think, yeah, that, that like sort of like a progression of the Uniswap B3 space into concentrated liquidity has made like the tools we built, I would say, you know, a lot more like required or useful. Yeah. Uniswap B3, it's pretty, I think, pretty complicated for, for a lot of retail users and these tools that you built are pretty helpful in terms of tracking your positions and doing the auto compounding and up fees and claiming fees, et cetera. Did you guys ever look into doing automation of the price ranges itself? I think that that's kind of been a growing trend where there's a lot more liquidity managers out there that will actively manage the price ranges for you. Is that something you guys ever thought about? So like the actual, like, like the, you know, liquidity managers as such, you know, we sort of like think they're, they're targeting at different, you know, corridors of users, right? That I think like perhaps the users that would be attractive to doing something like that would be, would have less of like, perhaps less sophisticated regards to like the strategies and like, and like what they want to do. Right. So, you know, we, we finally realized that we wanted to focus on a more advanced type of user and sort of like, I think our, our, our app, even, even in the user interface reflects that, right. Like we have a ton of data and it might seem overwhelming for, for like a user who, who isn't, who doesn't have like both already, sort of like a good understanding of what they're doing with regards to like providing liquidity. So, so no, in the sense of like, you know, competing with something like, like Arrakis that, that seems more focused and like I said, in a different cohort of users, but we do have some automation features, you know, like the, the, the difference is that instead of like, you know, it'd be like one sort of like automated vault that, that, that all users like deposit to, this allows you to like, you know, choose a position individually with any parameters you do the side, like you put in the assets themselves, of course, you know, any, any asset and also like the pool and then the price range. And then from that, you can decide to automate in different ways, like, like, like sort of like just exit liquidity once my position goes out of range or, or exit and swap it, or even like a more, more similar to what those some protocols do on like automated, keeping, keeping it in range. Right. But, but again, this is pretty much more focused on an advanced type of users that wants to like make all the decisions themselves, basically, you know, like sort of like supported by the data, data we provide, but, but, but still like in control and just want to, want to help with, with the automation aspects. Wanted to dive into the, to the new release that you guys just announced on Revert Lend. Can you talk about that? What, what exciting futures does that bring to UDV3 liquidity providers? Yeah. So, so what, what we've been working on over the last, you know, like the last months of like the previous year and like ongoing right now is, is this lending protocol, which, you know, collateralizes UDV swap positions and allows, allows like the, the, the owners of such positions to, to then, you know, take out a loan against a stable point. And this is when we're launching it, we're just going to launch it with, with, with one lending token, which will be, you know, a stable point to be announced. But, but basically it, it, I think just that in itself, you know, is, is, is incredibly interesting. Like it's in my mind, like obviously useful. you know, just the extra efficiency of having that the capital, you know, providing liquidity and you're getting the fees, but you can still, you know, use the capital to, to, to like, to like securitize or collateralize to take out launching seems like, you know, a great benefit, right? Then, then what can you do with those ones? Like you can, you can use those ones, you know, to then buy the, the other like token to collateralize and sort of like leverage up your position, which, which is, you know, super interesting, I think. But, but, you know, also you can also use it to, to, to, to buy, you know, different tokens or, or, or, you know, a trip or whatever. Right. Like it, it's it's it's it's just like intrinsically useful, I think. And, and like, well, we're not like the first landing won't be the first landing protocol that, that sort of like lets you collateralize your positions. Like there's a couple of months of these that allow you to do that, but they tend to be more focused on, on NFTs in the broader sense, like that you can collateralize a JPEG, but, and then they also allow like Uniswap positions, right. With which again, Salesforce sort of like hasn't, I think found good, good product market fit and by talking to, to our users who are LPs, we realized like, you know, a big reason why that may be is that like usually when, when users provide liquidity, you need to treat like some, some, some like are thinking in the longer term and you can see with the data, there's like very profitable positions that have been, you know, open for years even. But, but, but a lot of them like, like are sort of like thinking in a shorter term or, or want to have like the option to like, you know, update their, their, their, their decision with regards to like the, the price range they've selected or even like the asset themselves or the pool. So, you know, one thing we realized is like, okay, what are we, what the users want is like to have the option to collateralize their position, but to not lose control of managing their liquidity. Right. And this fits very well with our users who are like advanced. So, you know, I think one of the coolest aspects of, of the protocol we're going to launch is that exactly that, like users can collateralize their positions, but they can still, you know, manage it by, you know, of changing the range or changing the pool or even, you know, completely changing the assets they're providing liquidity for as long as like at the end of the transaction, they collateralize that, but they have their collateralized position with, with, with acceptable assets that is some of their, like that keeps their, their account in a healthy state. Right. So, so I think that's, that, that's quite different from like from, from what exists out there and, and what we're like, you know, really excited about. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. So you're saying like the, the LPO, the liquidity providers for, for Univ3, they, they can come to revert lend, borrow a stable coin on their LP position, and then still have ownership or, or the ability to, to change their positions price range, or even change it to completely different asset pairs. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, the, the assets which they can provide liquidity for will be, you know, sort of like pre-approved because we're like a peer-to-pool venue product line. It's not like segregated. So, so like the product line itself has to make, you know, important decisions as to what assets are available. But other than that, yeah, they can change everything with regards to their collateralized position, including, you know, like two different assets, right. It's just as long as, as in the end, you know, there's like collateralized value that is, you know, above whatever loan they have. Yeah. I can, they can completely manage it. More, more realistically, I think what will happen. I mean, I'm sure some of our, of our users would, would, you know, in the change, the assets are provided liquidity for, but, but again, more, more, probably more often what will happen is like, we will, we'll get people just like changing the range and just keeping their position on, you know, in range and like all our tools that, that sort of like help users manage the position normally when it's not collateralized will still be available for, for collateralized position. Right. So there's like out the range we were discussing earlier will still be available even if your position is collateralized as a loan. Could you talk a little bit about like what's happening under the hood? How are you actually enabling the ability to collateralize on, on these NFT positions? How, like, what are the, I guess, the process for listing new collateral assets and, and lending assets? Yeah. So, so with regards to lending assets, the design is like that one asset where, you know, deployment, like one asset per lending pool, as opposed to do something like Aave that allows, you know, a set of assets to be, to be lent out. And we're, we realized like, we want to, we want to keep it simple. We think just allowing LPs to, to, to take out our loan in USDT or DAI or any stable current is, is really, you know, like 80 or 90% of, of, of the value we think we can provide, right. And, and so that's what we're doing with regards to that side of the market. Would regard, but, but it's still like, like the other aspects of like the, the positions are collateralized, you know, they have other tokens and it's important to be, you know, very careful again as to what assets you add, because, because like, they, like, it's, it's not going to be like a surrogate in the side, which we consider it, but you know, it, it brings other, other, you know, issues with regards to like fragmented liquidity. So, you know, basically what we thought, like, let's build something that's, that's useful for the most, you know, and, and keep it as, as simple as possible. So, yeah, so the, you know, with regards to like the, the collateralizable assets, you know, it's just probably going to depend on the change without LUTs, which, you know, now we've, we've decided it's going to be Arbitrum and, and, you know, shout out to, to the Arbitrum foundation that helps us with our grant to, to get, to get, you know, like a few others we'll be announcing. But yeah, that's what we're going to be launching. And then like, you know, the, the next step is to figure out which are safe assets to add, and of course you, you gotta like, you know, sort of like do some research with regards to like the liquidity of the assets. And of course you, you want, we're going to be very careful at the start and be very limited with regards to lending assets, but more generally, you know, the protocol does have mechanism to like limit the exposure on the lending pool would have to one particular asset. So, so we have like limited caps for, for each of the, of the underlying assets. And, and, you know, like it gets a little, it can get a little bit more tricky than a traditional lending protocol, like beyond like the aspects of, of the assets being safe. There's also the aspects of, well, they're, they're like in this, you know, you know, uniswap position that can, you know, shift like the allocation of each of the assets. So that's like something to factor in. And, but, but intrinsically, I think what, what we built is, is a, it's a clean and simple lending protocol. You know, even though it has this, this like functionality that was measuring that allows you to, to rearrange it, but like the, the parameters of your position, it's still, it's still, you know, by design relatively simple and, and, and I take, you know, that's, that's not as important in regards to like, you know, keeping things safe for, for, for our users. Yeah. So you're saying you're, for the collateral assets, you'll have one stable coin, either DAI, USTT or USDC, and then you'll have some approved lending assets and anyone can come with those approved assets and then they can just borrow from the same pool of, of that stable coin. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, the lending asset will be the like one stable coin. So like. if you're taking out a loan with Trevor's Lend, it will be, you know, you're collateralizing, but let it like some assets and your loan is in USDC, right? So, which we think is particularly useful, like in a market environment like we have right now, like people probably, you know, like we know because a bunch of users are very interested in, for example, leveraging up against the stable plan, you know? So, yeah, I think that's, like going forward, perhaps we will still like, you know, expand that and perhaps, you know, think of like in a future version, add more assets, so lending token, but I think we really, by focusing on stable plan, we keep things, like I said, like much more simpler and probably deliver on like the most of the use cases we've realized are there. Okay, I think you touched on this, but what are some of the major use cases you expect from this lending service? Is it just leveraging more into the same LP position? Well, that's I think one big use case, but no, I think like just, like that's one, just taking out a loan and then investing that outside of that, you know, LP position is gonna be very attractive, but that's, you know, sort of like the cycle progresses, right? But that's like just the aspect of, you know, the collateralized asset being, you know, you're very productive. It's interesting because you can sort of also think about it in this term, so similar to Alchemix, you can sort of like think of it as a self-repaying loan, right? And I think that's a very interesting aspect, but yeah, I think just the way we've thought about it, like generally what I believe, you know, like DeFi is super interesting. There's like a bunch of super interesting experiments, but, you know, the most like obvious, you know, and useful primitives in DeFi right now I believe are, you know, swaps and lending, right? Over collateralized lending. So again, it just seemed like an obvious missing service and just like a great way to enhance the experience of LPs to allow them to collateralize these positions. Yeah, the self-repaying loan one is pretty interesting. I didn't think of that. You're saying like the fees earned from the LP position can be used to pay off the loan that they take? Yeah, yes, definitely. Like let's say, you know, you take a loan for like 30% of the position's value, you know, having a 30% fee APR is not an advantage for a lot of these positions. So yeah, like, I mean, there's of course, like the debridge of this aspect to consider, but that can, you know, like that's just intrinsically true to providing equity. But yeah, like ostensibly for many of these positions, like the fee APR, like assuming, like yeah, the fee APR one position or whatever next position they migrate to with the same loan could, you know, in a lot of cases, pay off the loan for sure. What about the interest rates on the lending side for the stable client? Any ideas on where you expect that to sort of settle? Well, I'm not sure exactly, but like the APRs are quite, you know, high, or at least, you know, compared to what they were like in previous years, they're quite high at the moment. I think, you know, just USDC, you know, on a client basis, like 5%, I believe, or a little above and, you know, the same shape, like it's in a similar, you know, number. So it has to be probably somewhere above that. One of the talk a bit more on the risk side, talk about maybe what will happen in a worst case scenario where maybe there's congestion on ETH, asset prices are tanking. How would you, how does the liquidation process work? Because I imagine that can be kind of gas intensive as well, especially if it's on main net. So, yeah, so basically we've like, you know, had the advantage of being able to learn from what's worked in existing lending protocols, but I have in Confluent, which, you know, guided a lot of what the part of the sign. And it works, you know, quite similar once positions, like first time, you know, as opposed to some other possible designs, ours is one where you collateralize one position in a bulk of shorts, sort of like a CDP, and then you can take out a loan against that one position. And it's really, you can do that with other positions, right, but it's not a pair account held, it's a pair, you know, pair both held. So like, so that's like one important, after the other side, like a simple, you get, like someone can have, you know, two collateralized positions with two different loans and one becomes unhealthy and gets liquidated, but the other one doesn't, right? So it's segregated per position. And the liquidation process is like, you know, similar to like the traditional lending protocols where, you know, once the account becomes unhealthy, anyone can sort of like pay out the loan and in return, you know, get the assets that, like a part of the collateralized assets out of this, basically, and like there's a mechanism where like the starting discount starts at 2% and grows gradually as the position becomes more unhealthy towards a maximum of 10%. So that's sort of like, you know, the intention with that is to, you know, sort of like get, it's sort of like an option mechanism where ideally it would, you know, keep the actual discount over on the other side, like the penalty for getting liquidated, you know, as low as possible, but still, you know, attractive enough for liquidators. Okay, so you're saying in case of a liquidation, the LP position wouldn't get fully liquidated? It kind of builds up as the account health deteriorates? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, because the loan to value, you know, isn't ever like 100%, the, when a position gets liquidated, like a portion of the assets will get withdrawn to return to the liquidator, but there will be remaining assets and at that point, the position gets, it's not collateralized anymore and gets returned to the original owner's wallet with remaining assets. Does the user still retain their UDV3 NFT? Yeah, yeah, like the broker withdraws the required, you know, liquidity from the position to pay out the liquidator, but the remaining stays on the position and the NFT gets transferred back to the owner's wallet. And then how are you determining the value or the collateral value for these NFT positions? Yeah, so basically, you know, so you could like sort of like calculate the actual collateral value of the position, sort of like how we do on our front end by, you know, just basically taking the current asset composition and going at the price for each of these tokens, right? But that's like the full asset value. And when you, on this protocol, you have like a collateralized value, right? Because the loan to, like the collateral factor for each of the tokens is never gonna be like 100%. And then we can have, you know, let's say you have a position that's DAI and WBTC, right? And the collateral factor for DAI is relatively high because it's a stable coin and it's not as volatile. So that'll be say on 0.9. And then the WBTC collateral factor perhaps is like 0.7 or 0.8, right? So. you know, one tricky aspect is like when you liquidate the position, you're like, you know, like before it becomes liquidated, you don't know what, what the composition will be. So, so basically one, one important difference is we take like the minimum of the both collateral factors. So in this case, where like it's 0.9 for that and 0.7 for, for, for WBTC, like the collateral factor for the flow value of the position would be 0.7. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. You're taking the, the lower of the two collateral assets. Exactly. And that's how, like, you know, that's the maximum that, that like gives you a maximum of the value and a health factor for the whole decision. Okay. I think you have a Oracle, you're using like a dual Oracle system to, to source these price feeds for the calculation. Yeah, exactly. So, but again, this is like sort of like inspired a lot, but we have previous version of the Oracle, but, but we're, what we're going to be using is like a chain link feed as the primary Oracle. And then, you know, for, for, for each token set, set like a, a Uniswap P3Port to our Oracle, right. And the to our Oracle is more like a backstop. And, and so, you know, if the, if the like chain link feed price diverges by a certain amount from the like Uniswap to our Oracle, then the transaction, you know, the, the, the new loan or the liquidation can't go through. But that, that shouldn't happen, right? Like we're always going to select, you know, I mean, chain link, that's, that's a repetition beyond, beyond what I can expand on here. But, but, but, you know, things can go wrong. And, and likewise, on the Uniswap, you know, to our, you know, Oracle we're obviously going to choose, you know, pools that are highly liquid and, and sort of like, and use like a London health swap. But, but yeah, basically it's sort of like just an extra level of, of, of guarantee and, and sort of like minimizes the requirement of trusting either of those, of those Oracles as like a, just like, like a complete, you know, source of truth. Let's say the things do go wrong and you do end up with bad debt. What's the playbook there? Like how do you handle the bad debt? Yeah, that, that was like an interesting, you know, design choice I think, I think we make, right? Like traditionally how that would play out in, you know, I think most, you know, lending protocol designs is basically, you're sort of like the incentivize a bank run at that point, right? Because, you know, all the lenders want to, want to withdraw the, the, the, their assets before, before there's not enough. Right. So, you know, we think that that's probably not, not, not ideal. Like it's unfair for a lot of liquers, for me, for a lot of, of lenders that don't act like instantly. And so like the, the incentivizing bank run is I think not, not ideal, I believe. So, you know, if, if that ever happens in the lending protocol, so like the way society is that, you know, across all lenders, you basically get, get like a haircut and, you know, but like if, if the, if the bad loan is like 5% of the, of the lending pool, then, you know, now the lending pool is like 95% of what it was. And obviously that's like a terrible situation that we expect not to happen, but we believe like it's, it's, it's a much better, you know, answer for that type of catastrophic situation than sort of like the, the, the playing out a bank run. Yeah. So basically all the, the losses get socialized amongst the lenders. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we're starting to see more and more of that design now and a lot of these lending protocols versus the traditional one on like compound, compound Aave to your point where if there is significant bad debt, it could lead to a bank run on those lending assets. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, I think, you know, obviously you have to listen for this situation, but like the point where we got to such a case, like something went, went wildly wrong. Right. But yeah, we're still thinking in that situation, it's, it's much preferable to socialize the losses as opposed to like, you know, whoever acted quickly enough was able to withdraw their full assets and the rest, you know, are able to withdraw nothing. I wanted to ask this since right now it is a airdrop season, but any plans to, you know, decentralize the protocol through a token, you know, is, is that something in the plans for Robert? Yeah. So, so I think, you know, if, if we're like, if we're writing in this, you know, being a very, you know, used protocol and we're like successful in like work on launch, I think the only way to progress forward or like the best way to progress forward is for sure. I mean, you know, the, the, the different parameters and decisions we can make be decentralized to allow, and then, you know, the, the token, just the mechanism we would use for that. I think, I think it will be, you know, a bit ahead of ourselves to, to like, you know, launch a token right now before we stop. Like, I realized that that's like sort of like a playbook for a lot of projects, but we, we sort of like think that, that it will be better to, to have, you know, the protocol itself be, be, be used and out there and then, and then start thinking about decentralizing it with a token. Okay. The, the contracts today, are they, are they managed by like a team multisig? Yeah. What are the parameters that, that, that multisig can adjust? Yeah. So indeed it'll be a, a, a, like a, a team multisig for, for, you know, for, for the initial, you know, deployment. And basically like we, we were like very aware that, that even, even in that case, we, we were wanting to minimize like the, the risk of like, even if, if like, you know, say that the multisig was evil somehow, like you, you couldn't really, like, for example, like the, you can't like, you know, change, change the Oracle. I mean, like we had to like, honestly, you know, I think this is just like the start of practice for, for, for, you know, good DeFi protocols, but just minimize what, what like this owner account, which will be a multisig and eventually that can actually do right. And you've got like protection mechanisms, like, like, like time looks at that we also have in place. Right. But, but basically the governance can, can like the most important, you know, aspect that, that, that governance will, will, will, will sort of like decide what to do with this multisig. First, like what assets, you know, do you accept as collateral, right? That's just an important decision that again, we want to, want to be very conservative when we start and keep it, you know, very, very minimal. But, but like eventually that, that, that's a decision that, that we see, you know, being obviously decentralized and, and sort of like we willing to, to, to, to perhaps, you know, be less conservative with regards to the asset, you know, always, always, you know, protected by, by, like, by cap limits and always, you know, being fully aware that like the asset has to be, you know, well, it has to have enough liquidity and it has to, to, to, to, to be, you know, not as volatile that, that, that it's not, you know, collateralized. But, but yeah. So that, that's like the most important decision. And from there you have like decisions with regards to like the, the, the interest rate model and like, which uses like different parameters that we can, you know, like just like set up base rate, for example, not set up base rate and, you know, and like, so like a, like a cake, which is like the point at which the interest rates are like shut, shut, shuts off to, to incentivize, you know, more, more lenders or, or, or payback of loans. So, so those are, you know, the, the type of, of parameters that will be controlled. Like there's, there's like gaps and limits, like I was saying, like there's, you know, like a sort of like a global, like a global exposure for any one asset, which is like a, like, like a parameter, like the, the owner of the protocol will set, which can, you know, be updated as the protocol grows. like, okay, we're going to add WBTC, but it's going to have a cap exposure for 10% of the lending pool. And as the protocol grows, you want to update that. So those are other important parameters that are decided by the governance. The Oracle itself is another one. When you add and you're talking, that includes specifying which Chainlink you're going to use and which will provide the Uniswap v3 Oracle. So yeah, per Oracle, you have the TWAP seconds, the Uniswap protocol will have the acceptable max difference between the Chainlink price bid and the TWAP Oracle. We'll list them in the white paper, but basically, they're those types of products. I noticed on the main page, you guys have been expanding to more DEXs outside of Uniswap. You have SushiSwap, PancakeSwap, Forge, and then Balancer and Curve coming up. Is that only on the analytics side or do you have plans to also integrate those LP tokens into the lending product? So like for this project, I'm planning a protocol, it's only going to be like, it's only going to be available for Uniswap v3. But going forward, in principle, the same advantage of being able to authorize the position, we think apply to other AMMs. We sort of been very focused on Uniswap v3, just like I was saying, it was a great step forward with regards to AMMs. And it seemed more like our tools would provide a greater benefit than what was standard back before concentrated equity. But we really are bullish about AMMs in general. I think that equals obviously more DEXs than Uniswap. And as we go forward, we plan to definitely start supporting others. And first, like you said, we're working with the analytics and the automation. But yeah, we definitely see ourselves as providing all these tools for the appendices. Yeah, the reason I was asking, recently we spoke to Curvance, another lending protocol that's coming up and they're working on collateralizing Curve LP tokens. So yeah, that'll be interesting if you guys also move into that side as well. But yeah, it's pretty cool. A lot of innovation happening on the lending side these days. No, I think it's great that Curvance is also... I think just this composability, we don't talk about the narrative too much anymore. I feel that's like DeFi used to, but that's obviously one of the most cool aspects of DeFi, I think. And as we go forward, I expect a lot of more of this type of like lending protocols or different constructions that allow for doing different things with LP tokens and sort of like composing on top of AMMs. I think that's very exciting. I think Uniswap before coming up is also super exciting for us. I think the next version of Rebirth, there'll be an expression of Rebirth that we saw and we're already sort of thinking we can do this for different VMs. And it's really exciting. I think that they sort of come up with a very powerful design that allows for very cool things to be built on top, including better ways to build lending protocols of the type that we're building. Nice. When can users expect to start playing around with Rebirth Lend? So we're currently ongoing our first audit. And then by early next month, probably we expect to launch a Code for Arena audit contest. And so we are targeting to have Rebirth Lend launched before the end of March. So we're at early mid-March. Well, it's been great speaking with you, Mario. If the users want to learn more about Rebirth Finance and the lending product, how can they find you there? Sure. Yeah, I think that visit our site, Rebirth Finance, and just connect your account or type in your address if you're an LP and you'll probably get some surprising results. And to learn more about the protocol, maybe go in the protocol, follow us on Twitter at Rebirth Finance, and we'll be updating on the progress of our audits. And as we get close to launch, the different announcements we'll make. Thanks very much for this conversation and for the invite. I appreciate it. Yeah, no worries. 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